2010 Turkish Grand Prix (May 28-30)

[Matra et Alpine]

BUT it has already happened, a team found to be giving team orders loses the points and gets fined.

I think the team purpose is alsoi too simple as stated there.
it IS complicated and many-faceted.
Having your driver be THE one aligned to the whole F1 carries your brand forward - hence why I cited Schumi and his Ferrari deals. Ferrari NEVER cared about a second driver. Their whole stated aim was to get their driver on the podium.

Simple marketing, standing on the podium #1 spot gets you 19 chances to show your brand, technology, skills. The WCC gets you a bundle of money at the end of the year.
Tell me which one a publicity department wants ?????

[RacingManiac]

Each point on the WCC is worth a certain amount of TV money.....regardless which driver scores that pt(which to the driver is the WDC pts). So I am with henk4 that to the team, WCC is more important....

When team mates collides, especially in this case where a potential 1-2(45 WCC points) went down to a 3rd only(15 WCC pts), it is potentially millions of dollars, worse yet, if it turns out to be the margin of loss to the actual championship, the ramification is worse. Not to mention its a net loss of equipments....IMO teammates should race differently, and thats a big difference at the big-league level motorsport to the grassroot stuff.

I also don't think Webber HAD the corner. Seb was inside, and ahead, but he got greedy and wanted the racing line and thats why they collided. If that hadn't happened, Webber would have to brake earlier to make the turn, or Seb will just hang him out dry and turns in late(probably had to anyway on the shallow line he was on) and Webber will either cut the chicane or just make a really slow turn. I don't remember the on board but they touched past the 50m marker, so not much of the corner is left at that point. It was IMO at best 50/50 on who owns the corner.

[henk4]

BUT it has already happened, a team found to be giving team orders loses the points and gets fined.

I think the team purpose is alsoi too simple as stated there.
it IS complicated and many-faceted.
Having your driver be THE one aligned to the whole F1 carries your brand forward - hence why I cited Schumi and his Ferrari deals. Ferrari NEVER cared about a second driver. Their whole stated aim was to get their driver on the podium.

Simple marketing, standing on the podium #1 spot gets you 19 chances to show your brand, technology, skills. The WCC gets you a bundle of money at the end of the year.
Tell me which one a publicity department wants ?????

I am fully aware that team orders are officially forbidden. But that does not stop teams from putting their overall interest first, but of course not openly. The Ferraris that Schumacher had available during his heydays were good enough for a mediocre (and cheaper) number two to score enough points for the championship.

[Matra et Alpine]

Each point on the WCC is worth a certain amount of TV money.....regardless which driver scores that pt(which to the driver is the WDC pts). So I am with henk4 that to the team, WCC is more important....

TV money is peanuts compared to sponsorship.
What gets the most sponsorships coverage --- being on the podium each race or beind WCC ? Most folks can go back a few years listing F1 WDCs and struggle to know which the WCC was.

When team mates collides, especially in this case where a potential 1-2(45 WCC points) went down to a 3rd only(15 WCC pts), it is potentially millions of dollars, worse yet, if it turns out to be the margin of loss to the actual championship, the ramification is worse.

We don't know - and Bernie will never publish - the exact numbers , but when you work backwards from team costs and sponsorship it was a small ratio. Mattered a lot to the small teams, but not the big ones.

Not to mention its a net loss of equipments....IMO teammates should race differently, and thats a big difference at the big-league level motorsport to the grassroot stuff.

Not sure which way round you think it's different.
But rest assured, at ALL levels of motorsport on road circuits, drivers dont have the time or capacity to be double thinking for their team mate.
Fact

I also don't think Webber HAD the corner

Well cant' say it any less bluntly..... you're wrong
It's irrelevant too as Vettel's stupid move meant nobody reached the corner correctly !!!

I don't remember the on board but they touched past the 50m marker, so not much of the corner is left at that point. It was IMO at best 50/50 on who owns the corner.

F1 cars aren't usually even THINKING about braking at a 50m board !
I've stated the siutuatrion as a racer woudl see it and will leave it to Ross Brawn also who made it clear HE woudl not have been embracing Vettel

[henk4]

please think: Teams consider the WCC more important, the public considers the WDC the important thing. Can anybody offhand remember a year when WDC and WCC were not won by the same team? Ferrari in 1982?

[f6fhellcat13]

When Hamilton won.

[RacingManiac]

1999...Hakkinen was WDC and Ferrari won WCC...

No point arguing Matra, I think you are wrong on Webber owning the corner, the guy on the inside and upfront is always going to get to the apex first, regardless what happen after he gets there, he might run wide and lose the position anyway..... Vettel's mistake was to try to get back in line when Webber was still there, but his attempt to pass is nothing different that anyone else in his position would have done. If the move was so desperate than Mark would have just let him over cook the corner and not held his line in force. But IMO the move could have sticked(if not only for the first part of the 12-13-14 complex) if it weren't for Vettel's misjudged move after.

I say 50m board because I don't know whats the actual distance of the last board. All of that stuff happen after the last board....

[Matra et Alpine]

Good point, and will look it up, BUT that confuses INTENT with RESULT.
We cannot prove either way.

Good for discussion and exploration of the points, but sadly not an answer

[Matra et Alpine]

No point arguing Matra, I think you are wrong on Webber owning the corner, the guy on the inside and upfront is always going to get to the apex first

I'm trying best NOT to be arguing.

But again you are WRONG in what you write.
The APEX of a corner is BEYOND the turn in and if you are inside you cannot reach the apex, you either got for an early apex or pull up REALLY hard and hold up the opponent beign able to get to the apex without getting even slower - a trick SChumacher used often in the rain

So how to take a next step ?
I can best advise get to a track and get a driver to take you out and FEEL the difference in speed on early apexing a corner versus missing an apex.
Or, listen to Mr Brawn

[Matra et Alpine]

The blue years are where WDC and WCC were different.
Still think it's not helping us that much as too many other variables and no direct connectino can be made.
But is intersting.

EDIT: I've also highlighted in green the years where the TEAM were the winners - ie won WDC, WCC and WDC runners-up. WHich you'd think woudl happen often if the event was a team only event with predicable results.


When you see this you realise how much Schumacher MEANT at Ferrari for sure though

YEAR WDC driver Team , WCC winner , WCC runner-up , WDC runner up and team(s)
1958 Mike Hawthorn Ferrari , Vanwall , Ferrari , Stirling Moss Cooper Vanwall
1959 Jack Brabham Cooper* , Cooper , Ferrari , Tony Brooks Ferrari
1960 Jack Brabham Cooper* , Cooper , Lotus , Bruce McLaren Cooper
1961 Phil Hill Ferrari* , Ferrari , Lotus , Wolfgang von Trips† Ferrari
1962 Graham Hill BRM* , BRM , Lotus , Jim Clark Lotus
1963 Jim Clark Lotus* , Lotus , BRM , Graham Hill BRM
1964 John Surtees Ferrari* , Ferrari , BRM , Graham Hill BRM
1965 Jim Clark Lotus* , Lotus , BRM , Graham Hill BRM
1966 Jack Brabham Brabham* , Brabham , Ferrari , John Surtees Ferrari Cooper
1967 Denny Hulme Brabham* , Brabham , Lotus , Jack Brabham Brabham
1968 Graham Hill Lotus* , Lotus , McLaren , Jackie Stewart Matra
1969 Jackie Stewart Matra* , Matra , Brabham , Jacky Ickx Brabham
1970 Jochen Rindt Lotus* , Lotus , Ferrari , Jacky Ickx Ferrari
1971 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell* , Tyrrell , BRM , Ronnie Peterson March
1972 Emerson Fittipaldi Lotus* , Lotus , Tyrrell , Jackie Stewart Tyrrell
1973 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell , Lotus , Tyrrell , Emerson Fittipaldi Lotus
1974 Emerson Fittipaldi McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Clay Regazzoni Ferrari
1975 Niki Lauda Ferrari* , Ferrari , Brabham , Emerson Fittipaldi McLaren
1976 James Hunt McLaren , Ferrari , McLaren , Niki Lauda Ferrari
1977 Niki Lauda Ferrari* , Ferrari , Lotus , Jody Scheckter Wolf
1978 Mario Andretti Lotus* , Lotus , Ferrari , Ronnie Peterson† Lotus
1979 Jody Scheckter Ferrari* , Ferrari , Williams , Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari
1980 Alan Jones Williams* , Williams , Ligier , Nelson Piquet Brabham
1981 Nelson Piquet Brabham , Williams , Brabham , Carlos Reutemann Williams
1982 Keke Rosberg Williams , Ferrari , McLaren , Didier Pironi Ferrari
1983 Nelson Piquet Brabham , Ferrari , Renault , Alain Prost Renault
1984 Niki Lauda McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Alain Prost McLaren
1985 Alain Prost McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Michele Alboreto Ferrari
1986 Alain Prost McLaren , Williams , McLaren , Nigel Mansell Williams
1987 Nelson Piquet Williams* , Williams , McLaren , Nigel Mansell Williams
1988 Ayrton Senna McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Alain Prost McLaren
1989 Alain Prost McLaren* , McLaren , Williams , Ayrton Senna McLaren
1990 Ayrton Senna McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Alain Prost Ferrari
1991 Ayrton Senna McLaren* , McLaren , Williams , Nigel Mansell Williams
1992 Nigel Mansell Williams* , Williams , McLaren , Riccardo Patrese Williams
1993 Alain Prost Williams* , Williams , McLaren , Ayrton Senna McLaren
1994 Michael Schumacher Benetton , Williams , Benetton , Damon Hill Williams
1995 Michael Schumacher Benetton* , Benetton , Williams , Damon Hill Williams
1996 Damon Hill Williams* , Williams , Ferrari , Jacques Villeneuve Williams
1997 Jacques Villeneuve Williams* , Williams , Ferrari , Heinz-Harald Frentzen* Williams
1998 Mika Häkkinen McLaren* , McLaren , Ferrari , Michael Schumacher Ferrari
1999 Mika Häkkinen McLaren , Ferrari , McLaren , Eddie Irvine Ferrari
2000 Michael Schumacher Ferrari* , Ferrari , McLaren , Mika Häkkinen McLaren
2001 Michael Schumacher Ferrari* , Ferrari , McLaren , David Coulthard McLaren
2002 Michael Schumacher Ferrari* , Ferrari , Williams , Rubens Barrichello Ferrari
2003 Michael Schumacher Ferrari* , Ferrari , Williams , Kimi Räikkönen McLaren
2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari* , Ferrari , BAR , Rubens Barrichello Ferrari
2005 Fernando Alonso Renault* , Renault , McLaren , Kimi Räikkönen McLaren
2006 Fernando Alonso Renault* , Renault , Ferrari , Michael Schumacher Ferrari
2007 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari* , Ferrari , BMW Sauber , Lewis Hamilton McLaren
2008 Lewis Hamilton McLaren , Ferrari , McLaren , Felipe Massa Ferrari
2009 Jenson Button Brawn* , Brawn , Red Bull , Sebastian Vettel Red Bull

The source I used didn't have the runners-up ....

EDIT: The above table now shows the team of the runner up driver

...... which might be interesting to look at too. A true team-win year would suggest the same team as runners-up. But, then doing deeper analysis will lead to much more stats research no time for like the points gap !

EDIT: What I did realise was on soem of them how dominant the CAR was in the year of the triple

THIRD EDIT: () The columns got screwed in the original. So SHOUDL now be at least accurate -- though it's still inconclusive ( .... pasting tables into this SUCKS )

[clutch-monkey]

There is a difference between rolling over and let him through and retreating a bit to fight for the next corner. Much like the later Hamilton vs Button scrap. If Webber had just avoided letting Seb run into him

Webber isn't supposed to avoid anything... just stick to his line.
whoever is overtaking is supposed to avoid hitting stuff.

[henk4]

interesting table, whereby the header should probably be

brand of the WDC winner, the WDC winner, WCC Winner, runner-up in the WCC???
And yes, teams would like to have strong drivers, but not for the purpose of making these WDC, but for the purpose of making the team WCC.

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah sorry Pieter, I focussed on building the facts, a header woudl have helped - FIXED

Not sure I follow the logic at the end.
Strong driver doesn't guarantee WCC.... though granted Schumi is the case
Strong CAR makes it for sure when you look at the years where the team wins all three.
I jsut don't see ANY way to create the logic to get from that data to the conclusion "purpose of making the team WCC".
I think I've added the points which suggest the facts don't give us insight and there woudl be a case to investigate the facts further to see if it was possible to confirm all the conjecture we all put here.
MY main rationale on saying the WDC still is the one that counts is the actrions of the teams, But also F1 is MONEY and the vast majority of the TEAM INCOME is from the sponsors and not Bernie ( despite recent changes ). 19 chances for Vodafone to be on the TV at centre of focus, versus ONE and one that may not count if the sponsor changes for the next season.

[henk4]

just for the record, I remembered 1982 offhand as one year where the WDC was not in the WCC team (Rosberg and Ferrari). Yet your table shows otherwise... (Ferrari used four drivers to get that result as both Villeneuve and Pironi had to be replaced)

[Matra et Alpine]

Hadn't noticed the process from source to UCP pages was screwing up the tables.
Fixed --- I think .. adn if it's not please jsut edit. I've run out of hair to pull out trying to make the forum software accept paste of large tables

Interstingly more green back their in the 70s and 80s than I'd ahve said happened