Alfa Romeo TZ book

[Allemano]

I also haven't found this:

[henk4]

Interestingly, when the Canguro reappeared at Villa d'Este the accompanying Alfa mechanic, whose English was not too good, maintained that the car was fitted with a 1300 cc engine...

[Zagato_Olaf]

I'm not 100% sure, but obviousely he sued one of those who doubt his competence. There were scans of (authenticated?) court documents attached to one of his posts (how embarrassing!). Maybe to emphasize his seriousness.

Hello members,

Yes, I heard this first hand from the person who was being sued by mr. Olczyk. And we are talking serious figures in terms of money.

Some Alfa Romeo's which are or were for sale, have been discussed on www.alfabb.com. In some occasions, members concluded that the information did not cover the complete or the continious history that could be expected when selling such rare classic sports-/racingcars.
In other cases they concluded that the complete or continious history of a specific car could not be reconstructed through the knowledge, the documentation and the expertise of the members of the forum.
What happened next, you can read for yourself.

If you want a good book on the TZ, try to find an example of the book by Marcello Minerbi called 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ' published in 1985 by Mille Miglia Editrice. It is the book I always check first, when tracing the history of a SZ or TZ. Have a look at AbeBooks: New & Used Books, Textbooks, Rare & Out of Print Books (no connection!) if you are looking for an example this book.

Ciao, Olaf

[henk4]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Georgia"]Hello members,

Yes, I heard this first hand from the person who was being sued by mr. Olczyk.

The Doctor sometimes posts here too and to avoid any possible legal actions, the name of Mr. O is seldom to be mentioned here

[Zagato_Olaf]

The Doctor sometimes posts here too and to avoid any possible legal actions, the name of Mr. O is seldom to be mentioned here

Hello Henk,

Thanks for the advise! I will do that! I followed the thread on the Bizzarrini 5300's and P538 types as well as the threads on the Alfa Romeo's and it didn't make me happy because contributors were throwing dirt (not only PO!).

Furthermore I will stick to my limited sources (my books, documentation and my personal experience) and I will try to work together with others in order to piece together histories of and other information concerning Alfa Romeo's and other cars.
A lot of times it works better to ask questions than to state opinions when trying to find out things! I experienced that when trying to piece together the history of Alfa Romeo's TZ-1 and TZ-2 together with other forummembers.

Ciao, Olaf

P.S. This is me pushing the TZ-1 of Anthony Mak van Waay back in the late eighties/early nineties to the 'Droomauto' in Hilversum/Holland.

[henk4]

Hi Olaf,

Very sensible approach, the problems always start when the value of certain cars depends to a large extent on the story around it, and not on its qualities per se. Also the combination cardealer/historian is not always a good one...

Pieter

[Odin]

Hi Pieter, hi Olaf,
I came for me to the conclusion, that these discussions, about 'Orignality', are leading to nothing.
Today, it's seems to be big business with the old Cars. Most buyers are investors, who wants to earn fast their money. They don't buy to enjoy the Cars. If you got involved with the Oldtimer Scene, you can see, that most expensive Cars, are needing years to sell, there are announcements of record prices, which are not true. Dealers, Auctionhouses involved, in faking history, even 'Collectors' startet long time ago, faking cars.
On the other side, you can see only a few people, discussing the history of some Cars, in different Forums. People, who have great knowledge, are hardly giving Informations, or do it only for cash. Many 'Historians' are involved, in brokering Cars.
Where will you start, in the fifties, they startet faking Cars. Could we be shure, that all, Mr. Minerby wrote in his book, is true? You can read many Names of Collectors, who are nowadays known for Replicating Cars.
There was allways a difference, if you fake a Car, or someone known did the job. Today you could drive nearly all historic events, with Recreations, even the important, if you have the right connections.
Look at History in general, most known things, are depending of the interpretation and Manipulation of some guys. Are they telling the truth, or was there an interest?

Regards
Jörg

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Pieter, hi Olaf,
I came for me to the conclusion, that these discussions, about 'Orignality', are leading to nothing.
Today, it's seems to be big business with the old Cars. Most buyers are investors, who wants to earn fast their money. They don't buy to enjoy the Cars. If you got involved with the Oldtimer Scene, you can see, that most expensive Cars, are needing years to sell, there are announcements of record prices, which are not true. Dealers, Auctionhouses involved, in faking history, even 'Collectors' startet long time ago, faking cars.
On the other side, you can see only a few people, discussing the history of some Cars, in different Forums. People, who have great knowledge, are hardly giving Informations, or do it only for cash. Many 'Historians' are involved, in brokering Cars.
Where will you start, in the fifties, they startet faking Cars. Could we be shure, that all, Mr. Minerby wrote in his book, is true? You can read many Names of Collectors, who are nowadays known for Replicating Cars.
There was allways a difference, if you fake a Car, or someone known did the job. Today you could drive nearly all historic events, with Recreations, even the important, if you have the right connections.
Look at History in general, most known things, are depending of the interpretation and Manipulation of some guys. Are they telling the truth, or was there an interest?

Regards
Jörg

Hello Jörg,

Thanks for the input!

I do not have any difficulty with classic cars that are recreated (for example after being damaged beyond repair) or cars built out of parts of two or more vehicles. That happens a lot these day's and has happened in the past. It might be more wise to race a replica instead of the real thing! As long as it is clear how the car came into existence.
Also, a lot of (racing) cars had their engines, gearboxes and other components updated and changed, modifications were made and they were repaired after being damaged. Nothing wrong with that. That's all in the game if you buy an old (racing) car.

I do have a problem with people asking a lot of money for a (racing) car that is not what it is supposed to be or a car where the history is in doubt.

On the book of Marcello Minerbi. We will never know if all he wrote is actually correct. Chances are that experts on SZ and TZ will have different opinions on some matters in this field, like in any other field. This is not an exact science. And even there people tend to disagree on some things. That is why I am used to name the sources from where I get my information, for example the book of Marcello Minerbi.

But I would name Marcello Minerbi's SZ / TZ-book in a different category than the more recent TZ-book of Philippe Olczyk. In my opinion, mr. Olczyk is more thorough in selecting a lot of great pictures of TZ's racing and rallying, piecing together which photograph contained what chassisnumber, adding the history of the car and publishing them. He also mentions a lot of results for the TZ-cars in the 1960's.

In my opinion the Minerbi publication is more thorough on research concerning the origin, the history and the development of the SZ and TZ and Minerbi was the first one (to my knowledge) to publish the history of all the chassisnumbers of SZ and TZ cars that were produced. A lot of people depended in a lot of ways on the historic information about every SZ and TZ chassisnumber from the moment the Minerbi book was published.
Jörg, what is your opinion when you compare both publications?

Any others who can give their input on the books?

Ciao, Olaf

[Odin]

Hi Olaf,
I share your opinion, about the books. The big question is, is the belgian car dealer an expert, or he only wants to promote some of his cars. Why should Alfa copy the Asardo, when they gain their experience with Abarth and Conrero built Specials.
For me the TZ is a beautiful Car, but it was only a 1600 class winning car in some countrys. The class went up to 2 liters and there was no winning against the Porsche 904 GTS.
I think someone is trying to push the price up, with Race listings and 'marvelous' history. That some people don't want to go in touch, with him, I can understand, but claiming their Cars are Fakes for this.
Until now, there are 27 TZ 1, with double Chassisnumbers known. The TZ 2 is worth three times as much, for this are some modified TZ 1, with TZ 2 Bodys, which were with 'no News' in Minerbis Book, appearing. Maybe Mr. O will find all the missing TZ, naturally with TZ 2 Body and with his vast Fotoarchive, he will find the correct history of each.
Lets see, what will happen with the SZ Cars, in the near future.

Regards
Jörg

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Olaf,
I share your opinion, about the books. The big question is, is the belgian car dealer an expert, or he only wants to promote some of his cars. Why should Alfa copy the Asardo, when they gain their experience with Abarth and Conrero built Specials.
For me the TZ is a beautiful Car, but it was only a 1600 class winning car in some countrys. The class went up to 2 liters and there was no winning against the Porsche 904 GTS.
I think someone is trying to push the price up, with Race listings and 'marvelous' history. That some people don't want to go in touch, with him, I can understand, but claiming their Cars are Fakes for this.
Until now, there are 27 TZ 1, with double Chassisnumbers known. The TZ 2 is worth three times as much, for this are some modified TZ 1, with TZ 2 Bodys, which were with 'no News' in Minerbis Book, appearing. Maybe Mr. O will find all the missing TZ, naturally with TZ 2 Body and with his vast Fotoarchive, he will find the correct history of each.
Lets see, what will happen with the SZ Cars, in the near future.

Regards
Jörg

Hello Jörg,

Thanks for your response! Yep, the TZ is beautiful and there was nothing it could do against the 904 which I think is a beautiful car too. I saw both the TZ-1 and 904 models today at the Techno Classica in Essen. Wauw!

On our Belgian car dealer; I think he has accumulated a lot of knowledge on TZ-1 and TZ-2 in researching all the photographs, visiting owners, looking at cars and talking to other people with knowledge on the TZ. He certainly knows a lot more about TZ's than I do!

Jörg, I would not classify the TZ-1 with the TZ-2 body or any other car of our Belgian car dealer as a fake. That is not for me to decide.
I would like to look at it form another perspective. If someone claims that a car has a certain history (which makes the car more interesting and will have influence on the price), than pictures, documents, papers, films, results of races, personal accounts of people and other evidence will help to proof that the claimed history is correct and that the claimed history belongs to that specific car/chassisnumber.

As long as these documents or other proof don't show up, I am having doubts. It also means that the car could still be what it is claimed to be! But I can't check it. And if I can't check it, the history of that car will stay unclear, at least to me.

Lets see what happens with the missing TZ-2's in the coming period and what happens with other cars like the SZ's! By the way, I saw this TZ-1 today. Didn't have the chance to look for the chassisnumber! I have more pictures!

Ciao, Olaf

[Odin]

Hi Olaf,
I don't say, that the TZ is a Fake, I'm not an expert. Maybe our guy is a good guy, but he is way to aggressive, there are many doubts of some Cars he and the man behind him, sold. You can see many argentinien Replicas coming out of Belgium, during the last time.
He is selling Cars, in the upper Market Range and has an behaviour, which I really don't understand and its hard to believe, that someone will buy a expensive Car, from a Type like this one. But it's not my business.
Do you know, what is a real price for a TZ Replica? Would like to have a TZ 2, but not for 200.000 Pounds

I took these Pics some 20 years ago, one Car was from Michel Oprey. Do you have a chassis Number?
Regards
Jörg

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Olaf,
I don't say, that the TZ is a Fake, I'm not an expert. Maybe our guy is a good guy, but he is way to aggressive, there are many doubts of some Cars he and the man behind him, sold. You can see many argentinien Replicas coming out of Belgium, during the last time.
He is selling Cars, in the upper Market Range and has an behaviour, which I really don't understand and its hard to believe, that someone will buy a expensive Car, from a Type like this one. But it's not my business.
Do you know, what is a real price for a TZ Replica? Would like to have a TZ 2, but not for 200.000 Pounds

I took these Pics some 20 years ago, one Car was from Michel Oprey. Do you have a chassis Number?
Regards
Jörg

Hello Jörg,

I read about our Belgian car dealer that he seems to be a lot more of a decent man in real live and that his 'other' behaviour comes to life on the internet only. I didn't meet him in real live, so I can't tell you. He made quite a few enemies with his behaviour and also with his actions in the past.

About the cars our Belgian car dealer sells; I agree with you that he has an behaviour, which I really don't understand.
In Holland they say 'een gewaarschuwd man telt voor twee' which means something like 'once bitten, twice shy'.

I read about the Argentinien connection on the alfabb forum. And saw the pictures of some great conversions and replica's. If you want some more pictures of great coachbuilding try this link: Home Page HIETBRINK coachbuilding

'Dretceterini' made this quote on Alfabb on the prices of TZ-1 and 2 in the TZ-1/TZ-2 thread. Quote: 'A real TZ with varified history is now worth between $500,000 and $750,000! A real TZ2 with varified history is now worth close to 2 million!' Unquote. I would like to own a TZ-1 but chances are almost 100% that I will never have the money to afford one. Looking at them is great though! And I am very content with my Junior Zagato!

I do not know the chassisnumber of Michel Oprey's TZ-1 but I do have a picture of the same car which I made 1,5 years ago when we had a drive from our Alfaclub which started at 'Coumans' in Geleen near Maastricht in the south of Holland. See the attachment. And also a picture of the TZ-1 of Anthony Mak van Waay end of the eighties/early nineties with me as a young man pushing the car to its place on a car show in Hilversum in Holland.

Ciao! Olaf

[Allemano]

It wasn't about his competence regarding Alfa TZ, but about his ridiculous and self-rightuos behaviour especially on AlfaBB and FerrariChat. I'm not able to judge his qualification in any way, but fortunately people are looking more accurate to big mouth's statements.

[Odin]

Hi Allemano,
for me, he is funny, but reading most of his posts, even under his other nicknames, in different forums, I'm astonished, that he was able, to write books, if you can call a collection of pictures and Racing Results a books.
Regards
Jörg