Pro-Gun Laws Lobbyists...

[crisis]

Hehe...I'm not sure what list you're referring to, but I have to say whatever list that is it doesn't mean a lot to me. People are individuals. Every one is different, which is why socialism doesn't work, it assumes group-think and tries to destroy individual ambition and responsibility. And there is no list that could convince me that Australia would be a better place for me to live. It may be great for you, and that's fine. Enjoy it.

Getting back to guns, I keep hearing the same old line, "Guns kill, that's all they're designed to do." Which is of course only partially true, as your typical defensive handgun is actually quite an ineffective killing tool, compared to rifles and shotguns. Handgun rounds are quite weak. Most knowledgeable people in the U.S. consider a 9mm just barely adequate for self-defense, and many would never trust such a weak round, despite all that the movies have told you all.

But, handguns are designed to wound and kill human beings, this is true. What I can't grasp is that so many people fail to make the distinction between an innocent human being and one who has made the conscious decision to become a criminal predator. Such a person has accepted the risks that come along with purposely victimizing thier fellow human beings. One of those risks, (at least in my country) is being shot and maybe killed by their intended victim. I do not consider such an occurrence a tragedy. I simply do not consider a criminal lying dead in the street to be a tragedy on the same level as an innocent person lying dead in the street. And I'm comfortable being an armed law-abiding citizen who may one day have to take the life of such a criminal to protect the life of myself or another citizen. The odds are against such an occasion ever happening, despite what your media may have told you. But at least I will never find myself in the horrible position of witnessing a predatory criminal attacking an innocent person, and being powerless to do anything about it.

Gun lovers tend to trot out the tired old line about how cars kill more people and we should ban them. Seeing that you hang you justification for gun ownership on defending youself from rouge governments (which is an outrageous proposition ) and defending yourself from the seeming ever present hazard of being accosted by an armed assailent , I would be interested what type of extreme precautions you take to defend yourself from dangerous drivers.

[crisis]

I can't. They've all gone out of business. Yep that Moore accomplished a lot, didn't he?

They must have made heaps out of ammo. KMart in Australia seem to have got by ok without it.

Just ask the nice people who hosted the world at the 1984 Winter Olympics, in what was then the prosperous, beautiful, multiethnic city of Sarajevo.

Who had been forced to live together and have hated each other for years. Just a thought, when you do see "rebels" and "freedom fighters" pitching themselves against oppressive regimes you dont generally see too many hunting rifles. Mostly AK47s and RPGs. I suppose when it comes time to defend myself against my government I will have to just go get my hands on some of those. I should last a day or two longer anyway.

[cossie]

Seems the for's on this debate are very limited as the idea of owning a gun in the home is seeming to be a weak argument with the 'what if' umbrella'ing your whole frivalous attempt to condone keeping something dangerous in your home,sure we can all live in fear of the 'what ifs' but isn't this called being paranoid which the last i heard can be treated medically!!We are bombarded with documentaries about American crime and it seems to me that ALOT of gun crimes happen in the home by people who everyone thought "would never be capable of something like this" but unfortunately did and shot dead someone who was close to him/her.To take the law into your own hands to me is a sign that the fabric of the US society is breaking down and where Vigilanti's rule the streets,not the sort of society the rest of the world would like to live in,don't you think if they took guns away that they would be limiting their availability to the criminal as well! Every person is susceptable to being pushed too far if they allow it especially in the first world where external pressures by your materilaistic and greed driven society cause alot of well documented despair amongst some families who find it hard to have or to keep the American dream ,this combined with the high proportion of gun ownership in the US only pushes up the odds of a lunatic opening the bedside drawer and going on a rampage.

[Ferrari Tifosi]

Seems the for's on this debate are very limited as the idea of owning a gun in the home is seeming to be a weak argument with the 'what if' umbrella'ing your whole frivalous attempt to condone keeping something dangerous in your home,sure we can all live in fear of the 'what ifs' but isn't this called being paranoid which the last i heard can be treated medically!!We are bombarded with documentaries about American crime and it seems to me that ALOT of gun crimes happen in the home by people who everyone thought "would never be capable of something like this" but unfortunately did and shot dead someone who was close to him/her.To take the law into your own hands to me is a sign that the fabric of the US society is breaking down and where Vigilanti's rule the streets,not the sort of society the rest of the world would like to live in,don't you think if they took guns away that they would be limiting their availability to the criminal as well! Every person is susceptable to being pushed too far if they allow it especially in the first world where external pressures by your materilaistic and greed driven society cause alot of well documented despair amongst some families who find it hard to have or to keep the American dream ,this combined with the high proportion of gun ownership in the US only pushes up the odds of a lunatic opening the bedside drawer and going on a rampage.

It seems that people against gun ownership are failing to listen to some points already mentioned. A huge majority of homicides committed with the use of a gun was by someone who purchased the gun ILLEGALLY. Meaning banning the selling/ownership would do hardly anything to reduce those homicides. Hardly any homicides are committed by people who purchased their gun legally and are registered for it. Banning would increase crime from the way I see it, just like prohibition did.

[cossie]

,don't you think if they took guns away that they would be limiting their availability to the criminal as well!

I think your missing the point.

[cls12vg30]

To answer this question we need only look at the poorly-thought-out "War on Drugs," which has utterly failed to keep cocaine, herione, and other drugs out of our country. Nowadays many drug shipments from Mexico also include illegal weapons. The government cannot totally stop such things, unless you want to live in a police state. ("Papers, please.") The banning of guns would give rise to an even larger black market than exists now. The government cannot keep firearms out of the hands of criminals who are determined to get them. Therefore the government has no right leaving me defenseless.

vigilantism is actually much less prevalent today than it was in the past, when there were no real police in much of the rural areas of the US. To take my statement about acting in self-defense to prevent imminent (as in right now, no time to call police and no way to escape) death or serious injury, and turn that into "Vigilantes rule the streets." is pretty asinine, don't you think?

As for the "fabric of society breaking down", I think you're making an incorrect assumption that American culture is just like European or Aussie culture. We are an individualistic society. My business is my business, not the government's or anyone else's, and the business of my countrymen is their business, not mine. The only time we ever really have a sense of "national unity" is when attacked from the outside. Otherwise we're a nation of individuals, looking out for ourselves and our families, rather than "the fabric of society". It's easy to see why socialism is so despised here. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Hardly any homicides are committed by people who purchased their gun legally and are registered for it. Banning would increase crime from the way I see it, just like prohibition did.

That is absolutely correct, in fact, we now have 15 years of statistical data since states began bringing back "shall-issue" concealed-carry laws allowing citizens to obtain licenses to carry concealed weapons. ALL states which have enacted these laws have seen significant drops in overall violent crime, and those rates have stayed down. Despite the fact that only about 3% of residents of North Carolina hold concealed carry permits, no criminal can know whether the potential victim they've got their eye on is one of those 3%, and the overall crime rates are measurably lower.

25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?

[SlickHolden]

Hehe...I'm not sure what list you're referring to, but I have to say whatever list that is it doesn't mean a lot to me.

Maybe Michael Moore wrote it hey.
You said you went to wall-mart and as Luciferous said maybe you should have went to k-mart the store i said 9mm bullets were banned in
And as for how does a gun in the U.S kill someone over here and it's nothing to so with us, Well all it takes is one gun from there to end up here and it's everyone's business,

And as for Michael Moore going and banning the 9mm bullets with the columbine survivors, Maybe you should pull your head out of your arse fast, And stop thinking he is taking your gun off you, They had news cameras down there when a spokes person from k-mart came out and read a letter saying they would no longer sell 9mm bullets, Don't you watch the news??

[SlickHolden]

I can't. They've all gone out of business. Yep that Moore accomplished a lot, didn't he?

.

It's clear you have a problem with micheal Moore and the truth, But next you will blame him for the Iraq war or the prices of oil going up that's him to hey.

If you wanna go play with guns then go join the Army, if not don't worry about it. Even in this day and age with the bullshit terror warnings, Australia is located directly south of Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world. With all the hype about Muslim extremists, I don't feel the need to go out and teach myself how to kill a man out of a paranoid delusion.

I'm the same i do some boxing weights and try some UFC for fitness, But don't wanna buy a gun and learn how to use it or learn how to kill a man, This year was a guy that cut me off the road and almost into a pole, road Rage came into my mind for 10sec as i had my nephew who is 9 in the front with me, But say in that split second of rage i had a gun? That guy put my life and my nephews life in danger by being a smart prick in a hurry, We were 2 foot away from hitting a pole that would have killed my nephew it was his side. But in that split second of rage when he had the cheek to smile like it was nothing and speed off i could have done something that i would have regretted.

[crisis]

It seems that people against gun ownership are failing to listen to some points already mentioned. A huge majority of homicides committed with the use of a gun was by someone who purchased the gun ILLEGALLY.

It seems those pro gun people need to explain a little better. From what I have read so far , with all of the watertight safety checks you shouldnt be able to buy a gun illegally. If you can then we have missed nothing. Thats one of the list of reasons we feel we would all be better off without them.

Meaning banning the selling/ownership would do hardly anything to reduce those homicides. Hardly any homicides are committed by people who purchased their gun legally and are registered for it.

Well Columbine springs to mind and I cant really be bothered tracking down all the others. Most domestic shootings ie jealous husband, dissalusioned spouse etc would be normal people generally able to legally purchase guns.

Banning would increase crime from the way I see it, just like prohibition did.

I would think it would have been a lot more difficult to get a beer during prohabition (perish the thought) than it is now.

[clutch-monkey]

why don't they just ban semi-autos in the states, like they did over here? shooters here are more than happy with bolt-actions etc, and its hard to go on a massacre with a bolt-action

[crisis]

To answer this question we need only look at the poorly-thought-out "War on Drugs," which has utterly failed to keep cocaine, herione, and other drugs out of our country.

Name one government which has it nailed but thats not the point of this really.

As for the "fabric of society breaking down", I think you're making an incorrect assumption that American culture is just like European or Aussie culture. We are an individualistic society. My business is my business, not the government's or anyone else's, and the business of my countrymen is their business, not mine.

I wont argue this any more than to say you have less idea about our culture
than we do about yours. The reason being is that your culture is thrust down our throats through every type of media and your countries international actions. It is one reason why your country is increasingly everyones business.

The only time we ever really have a sense of "national unity" is when attacked from the outside. Otherwise we're a nation of individuals, looking out for ourselves and our families, rather than "the fabric of society". It's easy to see why socialism is so despised here. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Your full of jingos and catchphrases. Everything fits neatly under a title. From what you say you subscribe to a theory of live and let die.


[/QUOTE]

[Matra et Alpine]

We are an individualistic society. My business is my business, not the government's or anyone else's, and the business of my countrymen is their business, not mine. The only time we ever really have a sense of "national unity" is when attacked from the outside. Otherwise we're a nation of individuals, looking out for ourselves and our families, rather than "the fabric of society". It's easy to see why socialism is so despised here. I wouldn't have it any other way.

and yet Christianity is the largest religion and professed by the larger percentage ?
Odd given that the 2 don't match

[Egg Nog]

It's so funny how the USA regards public safety these days...

People are pulled aside at the airport for having a fingernail clipper in their carry-on, but there's nothing wrong with mass unregistered public gun ownership.

The archaic laws need to die. They don't make sense anymore.

[Luciferous]

Damn straight it was made in a time of war and holds no relevance today. Besides its not as if all the gun nuts have gotten the American Army anywhere besides blowing away their own troops...

[SlickHolden]

Damn straight it was made in a time of war and holds no relevance today. Besides its not as if all the gun nuts have gotten the American Army anywhere besides blowing away their own troops...

Or the poor poms.