2010 Turkish Grand Prix (May 28-30)

[RacingManiac]

Webber isn't supposed to avoid anything... just stick to his line.
whoever is overtaking is supposed to avoid hitting stuff.

Question is can Webber actually make the corner on that line he was on? Both cars were way past center down on the inside of the turn, and both would've missed the apex if they didn't collide. What would Webber have done, if Seb did not "turn out"(for lack of better term) on him?

Not trying to say Seb was not at fault for the crash, but more to the point there was a chance that it need not have happened....even if Seb still tried the pass.

[Matra et Alpine]

WHAT ? Webber was easily in a place to make a safe early Apex and even the option - LATER - to go wide IF HE CHOSES TO.

You kind of think he was in the wrong place ? Or that he shodul move to help others ?
IT IS RACING

If Vettel had not made his stupid maneouvre then in all likelihood you'd have seen something SIMILAR to Hamilton/Button. where the partner didn't try to muscle the space. How hard is that to surmise ?

BUT, the point is HE SHOULD NOT BE ASKED TO BY ANYONE.

The ONLY variable in the "need not have happened" scenarios are all Vettel's.
Otherwise we are NOT discussing racing but organised lapping of fast vechicles !!!

Please consider what a race would be like if every time someone squeezed in to a space that the other person had to move over and make more room for them ? I've already explained how that attitude in the first 10 years of DCs F1 career screwd hium up for ever. Imagine WHO woudl then win races ... the person who always squeezed themselves into spaces forcing the "good guys" into losers. Ther is no real racing skill in taking that approach is there. NO THANKS>

[henk4]

It seems that Marko has taken back his orginal statement and now agrees with the rest of the team that the blame should be shared. On other news, it is reported that Webber only has to sign for a continuation of his RB contract...

[Matra et Alpine]

As I said, until we see telemetry and hear live team radio recordings, we'll never know.
Sponsors and team management will rewrite history to suit their needs
Be that right or wrong, truth or lies !!

[RacingManiac]

Matra, the fact that you said that nothing would have happened if Seb did not try to muscle for space, means the corner at that point in time(as in before Seb turn into Webber), was SHARED. My point on contention was that on the basis of Seb attempting to pass(NOT an error in itself), at that point, regardless if he can make the corner or not(lets face it, people overshot the corner in dumb move all the time), he was down on the inside, using whatever space Mark left him, and was fractionally ahead, corner was no longer "owned" by either of them. If Seb didn't move over, Mark was either a) brakes earlier and let Seb run wide and take cut under him, or b) brakes later and run off the track, or c)turn after Seb makes it. Now Seb starts to turn into him, do you think it is always better than I should just let him run into me, and we'll see after if I am damaged in the contact and hopefully survive it to score points, or take some avoidance action and try to race the position back, if necessary?

Maybe I am giving them too much time and space and maybe it was not avoidable on Webber's part. But from what I've seen, they need not have to collide even after Seb did the stupid move, and I don't see it would necessarily be set in stone that Webber was "giving way" to if he had just avoided him. Neither of them even turned in at that point, and there were still 3 consecutive 1st or 2nd gear turn that they can bang wheels all the way out for all I know....

[Matra et Alpine]

No, RM, and I've come at this from every angle to try to explan the practical aspect of racing line, turn-in, apex and space.

( EDIT: and please actuallY READ my posts. I never said "Nothing would happen" full stop. I have always tried to explain the ramifications of each of the choices made. Don't over simplofy things. Racign's not that easy away from the PS3/Xbox )

Let me try with some conjecture. Driver A comes up the inside of driver B 10mph faster. This is faster then they can take the corner .. so when they get to it they are going off.
Shoudl Driver B then move over so Driver A doesn't crash ?
Or stick to their line and require Driver A to brake more ?

It's plain and simple in the real world and I'm not up for playing any mroe mental masturbation messaging.

"need not have collide even after Seb did the stupid move" ... COME ON
Seriously ?
Webber is RACING, he is focussed on his line to the corner - a line he is entitled to.
Vettel TURNED IN TO HIM.
There wasn't enough space for Vettel to actually make the move he tried - see how close the track edge is and so Vettel muscles his way out to avoid beign caught int he trap HE CREATED.
You SERIOUSLY think a driver should be making space for others ?
I've already pointed out what that woudl mean to racing.

Sorry, but trying to then make it about not needin to turn in at the point is a waste of my time trying to talk through.

You're right. Does that help ?
It doesn't reflect ANY aspect of real world racing but clearly it does in your world of racing and if you think F1 can "bang wheels" then you haven't follwoed ANY of the F1 tech for the last 10 years. These aren't Indcy cars that are built to take wheel banging and glances to walls. F1 cars are very weak in directions that are "not normal".

BUT, in this world you surmise it is OK to "turn in" to other cars ? You serious ? Imagine the deaths if that were eer permitted !" It's F1 not DeathRace 2000 !!!!
So, I'm out of this conversation before more cliques form in PMs

[Matra et Alpine]

Actually here's my last post on it

Full interview: Christian Horner - Formula 1 news - GPUpdate.net

So all the RBR "experts" who mouthed off at the end have now "reviewed" the facts and changed mind.

Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark. Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right

Still more wish we coudl get from telemetry. Horner says Vettel had more fuel and coudl run 0.18s /lap faster "for a couple of laps" - lap 38, 39 and then the incident happened on 40. So it's VERY possibly Vettel wanted to get past KNOWING he'd run out of extra fuel and in reality may well be reduced to driving SLOWER than Webber who'd been fuel saving those three laps. Perhaps, this knowledge may explain why all at RBR and I mean all - including the pro-Vettel Austrian "advisor" Helmut Marko - now say racing incident and "equal blame" ---- whcih in my world when it's "equal" then the blame rests with the person who STARTED IT

[RacingManiac]

Not agreeing with you, but not going to pursue more. I can't explain myself well enough to you via just typed word, so I won't anymore.

Edit: Question to your 2nd reply though, started what? The attempt to pass? or the botched maneuver in the middle of attempting to pass?

[Matra et Alpine]

Red Bull clearly favour Vettel, says Brundle

Having commentated on Sunday's Turkish Grand Prix and spoken to Red Bull team members barely half an hour after the conclusion of a race which saw an almost certain 1-2 disappear courtesy of an avoidable accident between team-mates, Martin Brundle is convinced that the Milton Keynes squad is favouring Sebastian Vettel.

Mark Webber has enjoyed three consecutive pole positions on the last three race weekends, plus convincing race wins in Spain and Monaco, and it was the Australian who was leading on Lap 40 at Istanbul Park before being hit by his team-mate in a move which a significant percentage of GPUpdate.net readers feel was Vettel's fault, as per a straw poll which was started on Sunday evening.

"I have said several times this season that the only team who appear to be able to beat Red Bull are themselves," Brundle said in his BBC column on Monday. "I spoke with Christian Horner (Team Principal) and Helmut Marko (team advisor) immediately after the race. They asked how I called it on TV and I told them I said it was 100 percent Vettel's fault for swerving into Webber.

"They clearly disagreed and said that Webber should never have been squeezing his team-mate onto the dirty part of the race track when, as a team, they needed to be defending against the ever-present McLarens; there's some substance to that argument but the bottom line is that Vettel turning right into the side of Webber's car was not the right answer - he so nearly wiped him out for a second time in the run-off area at the hairpin, too.

The two cars collided on the 40th lap of the 58-lap event

"The team can't expect Webber to score three consecutive dominant pole positions and wipe the floor with all comers, including his team-mate, in the previous two races in Spain and Monaco and then suddenly turn all passive the first time Vettel makes a move on him; if Webber had lifted or moved over, he may as well have just handed the World Championship trophy to his team-mate and headed back to Australia."

With Red Bull having lost the Constructors'' Championship lead to McLaren as a direct result of the Turn 12 collision, Brundle believes that the 'civil war' could lead to failures on a greater level this season.

"The problem Red Bull have is that it seems clear they favour their protégé Vettel to take the title over Webber, who is 11 years older," Martin continued. "They can't claim to treat both drivers equally and then apparently favour one because the whole situation will implode between the two sides of the garage."

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[clutch-monkey]

Not trying to say Seb was not at fault for the crash, but more to the point there was a chance that it need not have happened....

yes, by not overtaking so impatiently there

[ringle]

I believe the most important part of the incident is being glossed over by the other facets of racing. The quick move to the right by Vet was the obvious cause of the contact. Vet had other choices such as backing off or simply holding his line and see what would play out through the corner and possibly continuing side-by-side for another corner or two. He choose to force the issue and initiated the contact. Any time penalties are handed out (not saying any kind of penalty is merited here) the one initiating the contact is the guilty party. Web on the other hand also had choices to either hold his line (which he is entitled to do) or give more room by drifting to the right or backing off and following. Web may also have not had enough time to react to Vet's quick move across. In any case the Team may be more to blame than either driver, by not giving clear instructions to both (I know it is "verboten" under current rules, but it is obviously employed by all teams) on what the status of each was, is and should be. RBR broke the cardinal rule of racing by allowing both of their drivers to compromise each others race and in the end all three lost points because of it.

SHAME ON RBR. If you want to compete at the highest level and be successful, you had better learn (and be able to execute within the team) the cardinal rules of racing first.

[Matra et Alpine]

SPot on Ringle ... and with the "news" ( is it true ? ) that Webber was turning down for fuel saving adn Vettel didn't need to ( or did he ? ) it adds the REAL lesson for the team we learn from McLaren.

When telling Hamilton to go into fuel-save htey made it VERY clear in the radio instructiyon that Button was on the SAME STRATEGY.

Simply, Horner should have told Webber he needed to go on save-mode and that Vettel did not for 2-3 laps. Webber at least then woudl ahve known what was going on. As it was, it's not unreasonable to assume that your partner is also going in to fuel save and NOT have a lrage advantage and to stick in their racing.

Of course this all - as said before - depends on what we're being told is the truth

[henk4]

the great reconciliation has taken place today. Everybody seems to be loving each other again at RBR. Long may it last.

[csl177]

the great reconciliation has taken place today. Everybody seems to be loving each other again at RBR. Long may it last.

Indeed, a veritable swoonfest. New Red Bull Racing slogan: "Friends don't let friends early apex."

[Matra et Alpine]

RBR one two on the grid at next race ..... we'll see