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[wwgkd]

Even so, at 1,077€/litre (filled in yesterday) diesel makes more sense than ever. That's $6.70/gal and it is expensive, and it even worse for petrol. However in the US, were petrol is much cheaper diesel don't have huge advantage they have in Europe. Yes, they may be better for specific applications and still make sense financially if you drive a lot.

But in many cases, even in Europe you still have to drive a lot to break even in the diesel v petrol comparison so in the US this number will still be even greater. I remember we did calculate some numbers for some European cars in an old thread time ago, but I can't remember which.

In any case you still had to drive at least 100.000km for the diesel to take over the petrol, which is a lot. And even so, I'm sure than in many cases here we have petrolitis, that's buying a diesel because it's more frugal even if you only use the car to get the groceries and back, in the same way there's the aversion diesel in the US.

(Edited for length, not because I don't agree.)

In some places diesel is cheaper than gas here, so yes there's a difference, but not like it was. Also we do seem to drive more than people in europe, and 100,000km isn't really that much. (at least it seems that way to me, am I off base there?) I know people who put over 200,000 miles on every car they owned. One comparison I saw, granted it was for SUVs which are going to show a bigger mileage difference due to the torque, showed less than that for a diesel to break even, about 30,000 miles with prices at that time (2008 I believe,) which is not hard to rack up on a daily driver.

Also, a deiesel does better in stop and go traffic than a standard gas engine (similar to your curvy roads), so even though the hybrid will outshine it typically, it's not a straight diesel-gas comparison due to the increased costs of the hybrid. When my dad was working as a consultant he worked with a man who drove the big lexus hybrid. My dad's only vehicle at the time was his Ram 2500 diesel (towed a 16,000lb trailer with it and lived out of that) and the Ram regularly got (slightly) better mileage on their commutes, which were similar in length and traffic. I'd say there's a lot going for diesel, even here. A biodiesel station just opened close to my dad's house, too, at basically the same rates as other diesel pumps so if you really want to be "green" why not a Golf or Jetta TDI?

[Ferrer]

Well we do have smaller distances and therefore our cars have lower mileage on average probably. The BMW has seen so far about 30,000km a year and the Mini has done almost 100,000km in five years. I'd say that's on the highish side for Europe, and altough I'm sure there's people who do more kilometres a year there's a lot of people who do significantly less. Of course depending on how much do you pretend to keep your car 100,000km shouldn't be difficult to reach.

I found the numbers that were calculated for a fellow forum member.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...-petrol-4.html

However, I've never understood why American petrolheads always wanted diesels. Yes they do use less fuel, but since you don't have the problem we have, why want them? They are noisy, laggy, have narrow rev ranges and low redlines. What's so interesting about them? Economy removed, I honestly see no point about diesels.

However, I fully agree with one thing. If you want to use as little fuel as possible over a wide range of conditions, as of now, diesel is still the way to go. And probably for us in the future diesel-hybrid will be the way to go.

[wwgkd]

Well we do have smaller distances and therefore our cars have lower mileage on average probably. The BMW has seen so far about 30,000km a year and the Mini has done almost 100,000km in five years. I'd say that's on the highish side for Europe, and altough I'm sure there's people who do more kilometres a year there's a lot of people who do significantly less. Of course depending on how much do you pretend to keep your car 100,000km shouldn't be difficult to reach.

I found the numbers that were calculated for a fellow forum member.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...-petrol-4.html

However, I've never understood why American petrolheads always wanted diesels. Yes they do use less fuel, but since you don't have the problem we have, why want them? They are noisy, laggy, have narrow rev ranges and low redlines. What's so interesting about them? Economy removed, I honestly see no point about diesels.

However, I fully agree with one thing. If you want to use as little fuel as possible over a wide range of conditions, as of now, diesel is still the way to go. And probably for us in the future diesel-hybrid will be the way to go.

I like torques. Really for truck enthusiasts (which we have quite a few of,) diesel is the way to go. For just a commuter car that you're wanting mileage, also diesel. Wouldn't want a diesel Elise, for instance, but I'd vastly prefer a Golf TDI to a Prius.

I'd heard the reason there aren't diesel-electric hybrids now is the cost, would that ever really change?

[Ferrer]

Let our fuel prices go up a little bit more and I'm sure they'll start building diesel-electrics.

I don't think the Prius is such a bad car. I don't want one, but probably not for the usual reasons. The thing with the Prius is that you have to get past all the earth-saving nonsense. What you have to do when you test it is analyse it as a car, as a transportation device, no as a tree-huging mana from the sky.

On that basis it is a reasonably performing, comfortable, spacious and practical five door family hatchback. The electric motor gives the added benefit of silence at town speeds, which is nice. It's not the last word dynamically, but then again many other family cars aren't either. It can't hold a candle to a diesel in fuel consumption, in European conditions, but I'm sure that compared to equivalent petrols it's no so bad. The problem for me it's that it is far too expensive. It's not worth what it costs.

I, however don't want a diesel. And I especially don't want a diesel in anything that's remotely competent dynamically. The single biggest enjoyment spoiled in the 118d is the engine. It's not that it is particularly slow or rurbbish, it's just that it doesn't feel right to thrash a diesel. And you've got all that handling there's not option but to go for it.

So in Europe we've got a problem. We can't have petrols because we get ripped off, but diesels aren't really rewarding or enjoyable. In that aspect, I have to say, the other side of the Atlantic is far luckier than us.

[henk4]

Albert, you should have gone for the 123d...
anyway when I look at them I also find the 908 and the R15 hardly dynamically competent. Amnd I see their sorry looking drivers who feel that it is not right to thrash a diesel....

[Kitdy]

Do you deny that the rules are biased in favour of diesels?

[Ferrer]

Albert, you should have gone for the 123d...
anyway when I look at them I also find the 908 and the R15 hardly dynamically competent. Amnd I see their sorry looking drivers who feel that it is not right to thrash a diesel....

Couldn't afford it. And in any case I'd still have more or less the same complaints (well maybe lag would have been eliminated), just at higher speeds.

I know you don't understand it, but there's something enjoyable it redlining a petrol engine and pushing it to the limit, especially if it's a good one, that just doesn't happen in a diesel for me. It's not a matter of performance or speed, just a personal opinion.

[henk4]

Do you deny that the rules are biased in favour of diesels?

to what effect do rule differences influence the possibility to thrash a diesel around the track.?

[Kitdy]

to what effect do rule differences influence the possibility to thrash a diesel around the track.?

It doesn't, but maybe driving a racing gasoline engine is more rewarding.

[henk4]

It doesn't, but maybe driving a racing gasoline engine is more rewarding.

I asked David Brabham last year after he won Le Mans. It is different. Rewarding is subjective.

[wwgkd]

Let our fuel prices go up a little bit more and I'm sure they'll start building diesel-electrics.

I don't think the Prius is such a bad car. I don't want one, but probably not for the usual reasons. The thing with the Prius is that you have to get past all the earth-saving nonsense. What you have to do when you test it is analyse it as a car, as a transportation device, no as a tree-huging mana from the sky.

On that basis it is a reasonably performing, comfortable, spacious and practical five door family hatchback. The electric motor gives the added benefit of silence at town speeds, which is nice. It's not the last word dynamically, but then again many other family cars aren't either. It can't hold a candle to a diesel in fuel consumption, in European conditions, but I'm sure that compared to equivalent petrols it's no so bad. The problem for me it's that it is far too expensive. It's not worth what it costs.

Fair enough.

You're right, it's not that bad of a car once you get past the holier than thou drivers who believe that driving anything else is not only rude but destroying the environment. It's just that so much else is better. In no way does it compare to a Golf TDI and I for one, wouldn't mind driving that quickly. I don't think any of the drivers of the Jetta TDI racing cars do either.

[Ferrer]

You're right, it's not that bad of a car once you get past the holier than thou drivers who believe that driving anything else is not only rude but destroying the environment. It's just that so much else is better. In no way does it compare to a Golf TDI and I for one, wouldn't mind driving that quickly. I don't think any of the drivers of the Jetta TDI racing cars do either.

That's precisely the thing. A Golf TDI or a BMW diesel can go fast. It even is comfortable going fast. And that's where the diesel is the big letdown. In a Prius though, with the automatic gearbox and low rolling resistance tires you don't want to go fast. And therefore it doesn't matter if it doesn't set your heart racing.

I personally don't want a diesel. But especially don't want a diesel in anything that's not a motorway car, because you are driving down that bit of your favourite road enjoying the corners, the handling, the steering, the brakes, you are forever being reminded that you've got a tractor's engine.

[henk4]

you are forever being reminded that you've got a tractor's engine.

Grow up, I would say, if you haven't gone past this mental concept.

[Ferrer]

Grow up, I would say, if you haven't gone past this mental concept.

I don't have to grow up. Maybe you just can't understand what's great about a petrol engine. That doesn't mean it isn't, though.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The difference, as I see it, is that you drive a diesel engine with a focus on keeping the engine at the right level of rev's or within the torque band. This requires focus and skill, but can be seen as a bit pedantic.

The Petrol engine, on the other hand, and for the most part, you simply mash your foot and the faster you rev the higher the power. this is somewhat more intuitive (more pedal = go more) but at the same time it also is somewhat less technical in it's approach.

Not that either approach is ineffective or weaker than the other, but to come at them with the same approach each time is going to leave you unhappy with one side of things.