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Thread: Alonso signs with Mclaren!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Content is pretty useless if you can't understand it.
    THere is proven research that letter swapped words are as comprehensible as the original.
    We've had a few examples posted on UCP for fun
    Gear ratios can't make that much of a difference to the acceleration without sacrificing top speed,
    erm you're assuming you're only playing with final diff ratios for that to be true. With a full race gearbox and gear sets you can get close to varying it for EACH gear. So for example it's common to put in a long gear if the track has a downhill section at that speed as gravity helps.
    and if we're playing the quoting game, I just found this on Crash...
    I wasn't "playing a game", I was giving you an Alonso quote ON THE ENGINE comparison as we were discussing Alonso's capacity to drive the differing engines.
    "We are still doing over 200mph and are only lapping three seconds a lap off the V10 so it isn't that slow," he said. "It does feel different, there isn't as much torque there, and you really notice it when you make a mistake. There isn't the torque to pull yourself out of a difficult situation and that will hurt some people who aren't consistent. If someone makes a mistake in front of you, it could it easier to overtake them because they will find it harder to pull themselves out of trouble.

    "The V8 requires a different style of driving as it is important to be smooth and hopefully it will help me. It's strange because in Barcelona you take turn three flat out, and I've never taken it flat out before – it isn't a corner anymore – and that could happen at more circuits. Aerodynamically we will be stronger next year as we keep improving that year by year so we will have more downforce and we will have less power

    I think in the case of these two quotes, it's likely to be a his fault/his fault situation with both drivers trying to make their situation seem the most favourable. So I think a pinch of salt is required.
    As the quote was from Button who is comparing the Honda V10 and V8 in a Honda chassis so it's comapring apples and oranges. So as you say pinch of salt. Sorry to pint it out, but the reason I selected that quote I gave was becaues it was Alonso saying how he saw the differences you were trying to ascribe to be giving him potential problems. ( May I suggest that's the problem when providing quotes is seen as "a game" instead of trying to seek insight )

    Besides, Button IS a very smooth driver and possibly why he'll never be in the top echelon. It needs a STRONG team to make a smooth driver a winner. A driver capable of wrestling a car adn dramtically asdjusting style can make a team a winner. I put my hand up, I think Button was over-rated before he came to F1 and since joining.

    You're certainly right on the fact that it's the package that makes the difference, but all other things being equal, I still think he'll struggle.
    If the package makes the differnce, how are all other things equal when it's the "package" that is everything ? Unless do you think it's the bird he's shagging in the motorhome that makes his performance better ?? That never worked for DC
    Anyway, I think it's to odifficutl to say as too many things have changed and there is no point to migrate to on performance so we're likely to see a mix of understeering, oversteering, twitchy, revvy, punchy, hard, soft setups until they start gettign to grips with these major changes. I predict it will be at least mid season before we start seeing the same car turning up for consecutive races
    So here's the real battle of 2006 Button & Kipling vs Alonso & Alpine!
    noob error of assuming because I point out something that I naturally support the issue I'm presenting evidence in defence on
    Schumacher will be THE force in the early races and if he doesnt' get tagged will win the first 3-4 races. once it starts to settle out we'll see if any team has pulled some magic out of the bag on the engine front or the new aero package. FAR too early to call except for fanboys.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  2. #32
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    Playing the quote game - figure of speech

    I can't even be arsed with this anymore.

    I don't think Ferrari will be all that strong in 06, I don't think they will have got over the change in designers yet - but, having said that they are Ferrari so have an uncanny knack of doing just what you don't expect.

    Honda will be strong, Williams will surprise a few people (and will end up sticking with Cosworth - I hope!), Toyota will have a repeat of 05, McLaren will be spectacular. I think Renault may struggle, for the first half and I don't care about anyone else! There you go, the neck has been well and truly stuck out.

    I reckon the engine is going to be crucial next year - not enough other stuff is changing, so logic would dictate companies like Toyota, Illmor, Honda and Cosworth will have the advantage from V8 experience.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Well there's a serious torque deficiancy... ...the car would pull from 'low' revs but with the V8, carrying speed through the bend will become crucial... ... power delivery of a 3.0 V10 and a 2.4 V8 would be anything remotely resembling 'similar'... ...the type of power delivery they've had since he started in F1 - more so than the other more traditionally styled drivers...
    Err, forgive me for asking, but how exactly is it that you just so happen to "know" exactly how the new (Renault in particular) F1 V8 engines deliver their torque and power in relation to the V10s?

    You have the dyno print outs or something? Been test driving them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    the type of power delivery they've had since he started in F1 - more so than the other more traditionally styled drivers...
    Again, apart from MS & RB all other F1 drivers have ever driven are V10s, so what is your point here?

    What was so different between the cars that, say KR and FA drove competitively pre-F1?

    FA obviously adapted his driving style to play on the strengths of the V10, to good effect - he might not be clean, but he is fast.

    What about him do you know so much about that you can "accurately" state that he can't adapt to a V8 in a similar way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Also Matra, a bit of proof reading wouldn't go a-miss.
    That's just uncalled for really.

    You are coming across as an extremely arrogant know-it-all.

    You might want to either state your sources for all this knowledge about V8s and Fernando Alonso's driving ability, or put your opinions across as just that, rather than stating them as if they are facts.
    Last edited by Coventrysucks; 12-20-2005 at 09:26 AM.
    Thanks for all the fish

  4. #34
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    I think Toyota will have a good chance at the title next year, because they have got a huge budget, and they can spend alot of money on R&D with the new engine. I don't think Williams will suprise if anything they will lose alot of respect among the top runers, changing from BMW to Cosworth will be something they will regret.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Playing the quote game - figure of speech
    not generally used as a "positive" figure of speech tho' is it
    At least now you know it generally isn't accepted in the manner you intend - esp if no smiley attached !
    I can't even be arsed with this anymore.
    and then ...
    I don't think Ferrari will be all that strong in 06, I don't think they will have got over the change in designers yet - but, having said that they are Ferrari so have an uncanny knack of doing just what you don't expect.

    Honda will be strong, Williams will surprise a few people (and will end up sticking with Cosworth - I hope!), Toyota will have a repeat of 05, McLaren will be spectacular. I think Renault may struggle, for the first half and I don't care about anyone else! There you go, the neck has been well and truly stuck out.

    I reckon the engine is going to be crucial next year - not enough other stuff is changing, so logic would dictate companies like Toyota, Illmor, Honda and Cosworth will have the advantage from V8 experience.
    LOVE IT

    So we do continue then ??

    Anyway , good summary.
    The rear balance and aero is going to be significantly diffrent with the shorter/smaller V8 which alters the cars completely. It has also been suggested that the radiators are going to be 20% smaller so MUCH lower drag. Will be interesting to see how much it changes shape and wheelbase or even whether they will make a lower fuel tank. We're not going to know till we see them undressed in the pit lanes THat was what I was referring to when I've talked about balance/aero.

    Toyota's chief designer has just left them, so I'm not so sure about their direction in the future

    I think BMW will frighten a few folks.
    Equally I predict RBR will do well till mid season and then lack of funds/development and Ferrari focus on their own team will have an impact.
    I agree ( but maybe for emotional reasons ) that Williams/Cosworth will do well.
    Honda I'm afraid I think will struggle, Japan Inc has never done very well when undertaking a team on their own
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukehow
    I think Toyota will have a good chance at the title next year, because they have got a huge budget, and they can spend alot of money on R&D with the new engine.
    They've spent so much and not really climbed the heights yet ( compare it with Stewart )
    There are clearly some political problems and will be interesign to see if it impacts the team. Mike Gascoynes style may not be liked in Toytota Germany competition dept.Gustav Brunner having just left .... http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34733
    I don't think Williams will suprise if anything they will lose alot of respect among the top runers, changing from BMW to Cosworth will be something they will regret.
    They didn't have a choice. BMW wanted their own team.
    Cosworth have continued providing R&D and products fro racing teams and especially in V8s. So far they're the only team to have taken a V8 beyond 20,000. Which is ASTOUNDING as V8s get more out of balance the faster the rev, whereas V10s had a "problem spot" down around 10-15K and smoothed out at higher revs. If they can sort out reliability early enough it may be a real winner ( but past history - the GREAT DFV took ages to get reliable )
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    not generally used as a "positive" figure of speech tho' is it
    At least now you know it generally isn't accepted in the manner you intend - esp if no smiley attached !

    and then ...

    LOVE IT

    So we do continue then ??

    Anyway , good summary.
    The rear balance and aero is going to be significantly diffrent with the shorter/smaller V8 which alters the cars completely. It has also been suggested that the radiators are going to be 20% smaller so MUCH lower drag. Will be interesting to see how much it changes shape and wheelbase or even whether they will make a lower fuel tank. We're not going to know till we see them undressed in the pit lanes THat was what I was referring to when I've talked about balance/aero.

    Toyota's chief designer has just left them, so I'm not so sure about their direction in the future

    I think BMW will frighten a few folks.
    Equally I predict RBR will do well till mid season and then lack of funds/development and Ferrari focus on their own team will have an impact.
    I agree ( but maybe for emotional reasons ) that Williams/Cosworth will do well.
    Honda I'm afraid I think will struggle, Japan Inc has never done very well when undertaking a team on their own
    Sorry, I meant on the Fernando issue.

    Good point on the small rads front (have you seen Autosport this week - pic of the R25 running in the pits with the cover off, the rad looks like one I might have in my house!) I've seen a couple of the newer cars at Jerez and the later spec ones look much cleaner than last year. I miss the stupid 'more holes than carbon' engine covers!

    I'm sort of disappointed about Toyota, I've always wanted them to do well, and for no specific reason really! Just quite like the way they became the mega-budget underdog!

    I certainly agree that the Williams Cosworth (that looks SO good!) opinon may be influenced by nostalgia but, thinking about it logically they are in with a chance. Williams have been in the doldrums for too long now, a team with that much pedigree must surely resurface. Cosworth have tonnes of race V8 experience (is it CART or Indy?) in the US and have had plenty of spare time to be developing the V8! Also, Williams are a pretty old-school team for whom relationships seem to be as crucial to their success as the bits they bolt together - small engine company, dedicated British team - and Frank will have the power over his manufacturer that he seems to crave!

    i think RBR made a poor decision going to Ferrari - too much politics and see above!

    I'm finding it difficult to make a call on BMW Sauber - it's difficult to glean anything from the melee of BMW Williams but Claire (Williams) told me in no uncertain terms that BMW engines are shite. She's Williams' press officer and that was at the July (June?) 05 Silverstone test.

    On the face of it, BMW Sauber would seem to be the merging of two slightly half-arsed organisations - from a performance point of view. Although, that could just mean neither has been in the situation to fully realise their respective potential. Perhaps this is that situation they need to flourish?

    As for Honda, I think they will carry on their 'win-or-bust' style (or perhaps that should be 'sometimes come close to a win-or-bust' style!) and either be spectacular or low-midfields. 06 is the obvious turning point for that lot.

    Coventry - stop being belligerent.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Coventry - stop being belligerent.
    What?

    I have perfectly valid points which you aren't addressing:

    Only MS & RB have driven anything other than V10 engines in F1. Why would any other drivers be disadvantaged more than others by a change of engine configuration?

    How/ Why do you "know" so much about power / torque comparisons between V10 and V8 engines in F1?

    What do you know about Alonso that we don't that allows you to summise that he can't adapt his driving style more or less than any other driver?
    Thanks for all the fish

  9. #39
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    Right, this is the last Alonso post I'm going to write.

    First of all - I don't think I said that he 'couldn't' adjust his style, only that 'he would struggle if he didn't'.

    I explained the second question in a much earlier post - Alonso's style of driving means he is slightly slow at the apex of the bend, compared to Button or Kimi (or DC, Schumi - any of the good guys). The ability for the V10 to pull from lower revs and the increased entry speed would compensate for this - and then some. However, I'm not so sure that the V8 will be able to have a big enough effect to counter the lower apex speed - his exit is 'slow' as it is - will the V8 pull hard enough? The cars will still weigh 600kgs.

    The differences we're talking about here are tiny, but at their level they're big enough to (potentially, I will concede) make a difference.

    The piston sizes are regulated, and there really is only so much you can do with mapping and timing when you're chasing 900bhp - they're revving at 20,000rpm!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    The piston sizes are regulated, and there really is only so much you can do with mapping and timing when you're chasing 900bhp - they're revving at 20,000rpm!
    eh? piston sizes are NOT regulated.
    Only materials for the piston and the pin are specified.
    the SWEPT VOLUME is regulated, so it's up to an engine designer whether he goes short stroke and gets revs or long stroke and gets torque.

    They actually are quite restricted on mapping as the inlets are non variable, so the engine's are going to possibly be "lumpier" at certain revs that the V10s with their variable intakes were
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #41
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    Bollocks - typo/brain slip thing! I meant cylinders! I was refering to...

    5.4.1 Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm

    How embarrasing i'm actually quite mortified. No joking.

    It seems as though they are chasing power though, with engines hitting 20,000rpm.

    Apparently last season's motors has GPS systems that could be used to alter the mapping for specific parts of each course! I also REALLY want to see the variable length intanke trumpets in action.

  12. #42
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    Mr Kipling, with regards to your theory that the V8s won't suit Alonso's driving style and that he will struggle to adapt blah, blah, blah, everyone was saying EXACTLY the same thing about him last year. It was thought that his aggressive turn in and preference for an understeery balance in his setup would mean he would nuke his front tyres by two thirds of the way through the race and the inability to change tyres would be his downfall. Everyone posited that the rule changes would suit the likes of Button/Schumacher etc with a super-smooth style. Now look what happened last year: Alonso subtley adapted his style to suit the new rules and he performed unbelievably well while Button and MS struggled. (Before you say it, I know there were other factors affecting JB and MS's poor performances last year, but you know what I'm getting at.)

    My personal opinion is that driving style is affected probably 95% by the chassis setup and balance etc, the engine probably has about a 5% impact on style. I don't think Alonso will have to make any significant changes to his driving style, probably no more than any other driver on the grid.
    uәʞoɹq spɹɐoqʎәʞ ʎɯ

  13. #43
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    Yeah, fair enough - I would agree with all of that, except I'm still not sure the new motors will make that small of a difference to the way the car behaves.

    Either way, I can't wait to find out!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKipling
    Bollocks - typo/brain slip thing! I meant cylinders! I was refering to...

    5.4.1 Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm

    How embarrasing i'm actually quite mortified. No joking.

    .........
    I also REALLY want to see the variable length intanke trumpets in action.
    erm, well I feel sorry to point out that LAST year you could have variable intake trumpets and THIS yera you CANNOT

    See http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...EGULATIONS.pdf 5.6.1 in case you're getting data from somewhre else.

    http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html has them all
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  15. #45
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    Just to clarify, Brunner was let go by Toyota as Mike Gascoyne is pretty much doing his job now....

    I reckon by mid next season lap time might be within a sec if not equal to 2005's time. As we've seen in the 03-04 transition, tire development can indeed worth that much. And with engine being taken away 3 second they might gain that all back with the reintroduction of sprint tire....

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